[rescue] God bless America

[Amy]

note: i apologize for my at-times rhetoric below, but its something i
honestly feel and believe. don't laugh at my idiocy before you think about
it first.

***

On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, David Cantrell wrote:
> [taken to geeks cos it's waaaaay off-topic.  flames will be ignored]

i had no idea things had begun to get this bad on the other lists. i
suppose i was remiss/naive in believing bill when he said things were
'under control'. first off, you've made some excellent points whether
people agree with them or not.

> For the same reason that the US doesn't seem to learn from history but
> always chooses to repeat it.  People are stupid.

stupid, ignorant, or naive? the average american has little knowledge of
world history (let alone the history of western civilization). the
majority of us weren't taught it, never read it, or simply have forgotten
much of it due to feeling far too safe/secure for far too long. if any
history is taught its usually a miss-mosh of condensed american history for
one semester. thats about 16 weeks to absorb 500 years--and you can bet it
didnt cover the political aspects of europe or foreign policy of
spain in 1492.

i spent 5 years studying western civilization prior to the middle ages.
the one thing that was as apparent to me at 14 as it is now is that much
of the middle east and europe has been at war due to X god since before
christ. so apparently *noone* has learned from history. not them, not us,
not you, not nato, not anyone if we're gonna sit here and spend our time
placing blame instead of fixing the problems. united we stand and united
we will all fall as long as religious ideals are in the mix somewhere.
there is no good that comes from arguing and fighting people who are willing
to die for their own martyrhood.

> But you really should consider that terrorism has proved to be rather
> effective in the past.

effective, yes. its already achieved some very good (and very horrific)
results here in the states. ones i hope wont be forgotten next week when all
of our mortgages are due.

> > And [we should kill] those groups who blamed our foreigh policy for
> > these attacks
>
> I guess that includes me then.  I don't think many Americans realise quite
> how much they are hated by the huge numbers of people who are victims of
> your government's foreign policies.  You crow about your much-vaunted
> democracy, and yet you fail to use your democracy to elect decent people,
> instead electing racist war-mongers.  THAT is how much of the world sees
> you, and your failure to use that democracy, unfortunately, makes many
> see individual citizens as being the enemy.

i'm of the opinion that you are absolutely correct in this.

david, i'm sure statistics are available somewhere from your recent
elections up there. how much of the voting populace participated in the
latest p.m. race?

> Y'know, I find the vile reaction of a great many American citizens who I
> had thought were decent, intelligent people to be far more disturbing than
> the attack itself.

understand i am making no excuses here for anyone but i believe at least
some explanations are overdue. many of us talking dont remember a time of
war or what it is/was like, we were too busy to pay attention, or simply
didnt worry since we were hell and gone from the action. that
ignorance and naivety is hurting us now. give the people time to think and
recover from all this and you might find a few changed minds, policies,
and agendas.

as for my own opinion, i feel very strongly that i've heard and seen
enough of blood being shed to last another few lifetimes. many people want
revenge; all i want is justice. justice doesnt mean turning a country into
a sheet of glass in order to find one man or punish a country for
harboring a known and wanted terrorist. if it were, that country might
well be our own for all 'we the people' know--the hijackers involved were
living in florida for god's sake. WE HARBORED THESE PEOPLE.

justice may mean extradition and a trial. justice may mean whoever is
responsible going door to door for the rest of his life and apologizing for
his directives. justice might be his ostracization from all societies (a
truly historical way of dealing with infidels, look it up) because noone
knows why all this was done because we've been force fed the ideal of not
seeing the big picture for so long. we assumed people we elected were
doing their jobs and we were comfortable being led along like sheep to a
slaughterhouse as long as our bills were paid, our kids were healty and
our employment secure.

> That 'only' killed a few thousand people, but there
> are literally *hundreds* of thousands of innocent casualties of US foreign
> policy.  And now, there seems to be a clamour to make even more of them.
> There's plenty of you (both on this list and more generally) who should be
> ashamed of yourselves.  I imagine that most will be when they get over the
> immediate emotional impact.

am i ashamed of myself? when given my only choice between two evils and i
chose the least evil? no.

am i ashamed of my countrymen who are calling for the slaughter of millions
and have for years? yes.

am i ashamed of my country three days ago that tended to jump the gun in
order to look like mr. bad-ass? absolutely, yes.

am i ashamed of my country *today*, where my president is taking his time
to identify fully and completely those responsible before any further action is
taken and seems to be listening to the sane minority of people and majority
of world leaders when they say war and further bloodshed is not necessary
for justice? hell no, and neither should you or anyone else.

for one of the first times, people here are waking up to a different
world. let it sink in, let them think. then, instead of throwing blame,
support us in our ignorance and show us gently what its like to be
civilized. only then can we all stand united and live at peace.

--a