[geeks] Now for something completely geek

[Sandwich Maker]

" From: Mike Meredith <very at zonky.org>
" 
" On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:16:38 -0400 (EDT), Sandwich Maker wrote:
" > " Ottoman Empire
" > " British Empire
" > " Mughal Empire
" > " and whatever the Chinese were/are should probably count as an
" > " empire.
" > " _______________________________________________
" > 
" > okay, i should have said in europe.  
" 
" Ah! That makes more sense, although ...
" 
" > the mughals and chinese
" > definitely weren't.  
" 
" Oops! I was thinking of the Mongols rather than the Mughals. I get those
" two confused when I'm tired (although the Mughals count in a list of
" post-roman empires). The Mongols were certainly well into Eastern Europe
" and Russia is essentially a Mongol creation. 

the mughals -were- mongols, in india.  i see your point though.

" > the ottomans never got as far as italy, though
" > they do sort of count.  was their hold on eastern europe ever very
" > secure?  
" 
" Pretty secure. Especially in the south east. There's some who theorise
" that the Balkans are currently (in a historical sense) so unstable
" because except for brief periods they've never had much in the way of
" independence.
" 
" > the british never conquered europe even if they did briefly
" > gain control of greece.
" 
" As they did in some senses most of France (if King John had been
" luckier, it could well be that the English would be speaking French and
" the French ruled by an English king), 

being of norman ancestry [if you go back far enough] myself, i've long
found the what ifs intriguing.  england lost their substantial french
holdings through royal ineptitude.

" France (during the Napolionic
" wars), Spain (ditto), parts of Germany (WWII), etc.

i don't think germany counts.  britain had a lot of help, and their
objective wasn't to add germany permanently to their territory.

france and spain i can't honestly speak to.

" Besides which the
" British Empire was part of/close enough to Europe to have an enormous
" influence (after all the UK isn't far from mainland Europe).

an influence.  enormous?  other european countries had
colonies/territories as near - france in particular.

" As for other empires that conquered part of Europe (and don't forget
" that the Romans didn't conquer the whole of Europe), don't forget the
" Islamic empire under the Umayyad Dynasty who conquered most of
" Spain/Portugal (El-Andeluse), which was the route by which so much
" knowledge came to Europe. Including the so-called Arabic numerals.

they helped europe rediscover its own history in rome and greece too.

i've heard it said that modern-day hispanic macho is a cultural relic
from the attitudes of those long-ago arabs.

" > i was thinking primarily of empires we count as part of -our- history
" > tree.
" 
" I guess I think more in terms of influences. For instance China has
" never been part of Europe, but Chinese trade with Europe has had an
" enormous influence over the years. The silk road (and dominance of the
" trade by the Arabs and Venicians) pushed the Portugese into attempting
" to find a route by sea around Africa.

it's also fascinating to discover how much we influenced china via
that same silk road.  chili peppers...

it's sad to see well-intentioned arabic/moslem leaders wanting to re-
establish an islamic golden age such as they enjoyed six centuries
ago, when they don't understand that flowering depended on the
hammerlock they had on east-west trade, and the money they could
estract in toll.  yes they have oil, but not all of it, and it's
draining fast.  it's entirely possible we'll see the end of it as a
meaningful commodity in our lifetimes.

" It could be that the "Spanish monarchs" (the unification of Spain was
" only just beginning) funded Columbus to see if they could get into the
" action. 

he certainly was a symbol of their success.

there's one other empire whose influence we should reckon - the
catholic empire.  for much of the last two millennia the bishop of
rome has been more powerful than kings, even in europe.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh at an.bradford.ma.us                       and think what none thought