[geeks] CCW for Ohio!

[Phil Stracchino]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:06:50AM -0800, Francisco Javier Mesa-Martinez wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> 
> > Any more.
> >
> > (Personally, I consider the three-round-burst feature a good idea for
> > untrained troops, but with proper fire discipline and trigger control,
> > it shouldn't be necessary.
> 
> As far as my experience was with US troops is that they had a lower set of
> expectations when it came to the markmanship skills of its basic units.
> I.e. an American soldier or marine, is made quicker and in larger quantities.

Six weeks of basic just wasn't enough.  I don't know if it's been
increased above that.  I'm pretty certain the Marines got more.
Frankly, I have great respect for the Marines.  There are times when you
really just need to have a body of troops who are gung-ho enough to just
say, "Hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle."

> Whereas for example in the old world, we have fewer Euro soldiers, so we need
> to make sure we make them troops count. Also there was, at least during my time,
> and incredible reliance on technological might and lack of certain basic -rough
> cut- skills. That may have changed, but in that context the 3 shot limitation
> sort of makes sense.

Yup, that was particularly true during the Vietnam era.  The scuttlebutt
in joint NATO exercises used to be that the US troops were the
best-equipped but worst-trained troops in NATO, while the British troops
were the best-trained but worst-equipped.

> Does the carbine version of the M-16 (AR-21?) also have the 3 round burst
> limit?

That would be the M4 Carbine, and my recollection is that it does not
have 3-round burst capability, but I could easily be mistaken on that.

> I have seen that almost all American troops use them vs. whatever was
> the last revision of the 16 (A3?).

A4, now.  And the A4 is a MUCH superior weapon to the M16 or M16A1 of
Vietnam.  Better mechanism, improved reliability, heavier barrels, bolt
cutouts to clear dirt better, faster rifling twist to better stabilize
heavier ammunition, three-round burst, standard Picatinny rail....  
It's a shame it took almost 40 years to work all the bugs out; they
should have gotten fixed much sooner.

I'm still a 7.62mm guy myself, though.  Reach out and touch someone.

> > No, whether you're using an AK, a G3, or an M16, short controlled bursts
> > are your friend.
> 
> That was not my experience with the AK though, the problem is that you
> need a good machined AK to get any decent accuracy.

Oh, granted the AK's not up to the accuracy potential of the M16
(particularly the A4).  But it's quite adequately accurate for the
ranges at which it was intended to be used -- as I said, typically 200m
and not over 400m -- and its loose tolerances make it much more reliable
in dirty conditions than the more precisely machined M16.


> I liked the G3 A LOT because it behaved well in both machine gun-mode and
> rifle-mode. The training I had with US M-16 did not quite "hit it" with me.

The G3 is a very nice rifle, no argument.  There's a reason it's one of
the world's most widely used assault rifles.

> We used the term "spray paint" :), sometimes you do not know where exactly
> the bad dude(s) are, but you sort of know the general area. When the shit
> hits the fan sometimes you have to play with probabilities :).

Yup, suppressive fire.  :)

> Well, you are correct... but as perception is a big part of things. For
> whatever reason the M-16 and our issue field rifle, felt more like... well
> a rifle. Probably because of the training, The AK for whatever reason felt
> different, and I am bad at describing it. It is like a sports car, two
> different makes have the same goal, drive fast, but each make feels
> different in its own sort of way.

So basically subjective, you're saying.  I can go along with that.


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