[geeks] education systems around the world

[Jonathan C. Patschke]

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008, Mike Meredith wrote:

>> Contingent force is still a threat of force.
>
> Governments always work with the threat of force.

Which my underlying disagreement with them.

> Education isn't quite the same as those items you mention. Yes, a
> considerable number of people will be quite keen on education, and make
> considerable sacrifices to try and get their children educated. There
> are also a number of people who do not see any great value in education
> and would be opposed to their children getting an education if it got
> in the way of them making their children go out and work.

I believe it would be the truly rare example of a crap parent who, in this
day and age, would not see the benefits of education.  At the very least,
getting your kids educated makes them better equipped to take care of you
in your old age.  Even so, most children are not under their parents'
control forever, and will be free to obtain whatever training they wish
once they can provide their own means or at the grace of a foundation of
some sort.

> Using taxation probably isn't the best option to fund universal
> education, but it beats no universal education.

For those being educated, perhaps.  But what of those who are forced to
pay?

>> Furthermore, I'm also implying that the way government schools are
>> run in the US is not conducive to a functioning society.  Ask any
>
> I'm not convinced that any form of classroom learning is the best way of
> getting an education. It may be worthwhile for elementary education, but
> once the 3Rs (and some socialisation) are acquired, independent learning
> is probably more effective.

I agree with you entirely, and would tend towards funding systems like
that.

> Actually there's no reason why "colleges" could not provide vocational
> training in "crafts". There's a fair amount of learning involved in the
> manual trades which would justify a 3 year college course.

Also true, but there tend to be separate schools for that sort of thing,
and, at least in this part of the world, teachers tend to sneer at kids
who would rather learn build neat things than learn the sorts of things
that are taught in a more academic setting.

> I always have a problem coming up with a justification as to why a state
> should interfere, but there are some justifications ...
>
> * What if you refused to teach your children anything ?

What if I decided to murder them?  We can't let anyone have children
unsupervised, then!

The overwhelming majority of parents love their kids and want to see them
do well.  A parent would have to be a really awful person to not teach
their child anything, and, I don't know if there's a good remedy for that.
Surely that's better than a lot of the evil things that bad parents do to
their children.

> * What if you were teaching your children dangerous rubbish like it's ok
>  to blow up infidels to reach paradise ? Or that evolution is rubbish
>  and the only scientific theory behind life is "intelligent design" ?

Seems like that's okay in some cultures.  Other cultures teach their
children that it's good to regard those who do well as being folks who've
having cheated their way up and deserve to have their ill-gotten gains
stolen from them and forcibly given to the less fortunate.  Other cultures
teach their children that their own culture is bad and wrong and that they
should embrace other cultures over their own to help allay the guilt.

We teach our children rubbish now.  Maybe a greater distribution of
rubbish (as opposed to everyone receiving the same) would reduce it to
background noise.

>> Ask anyone in jail for tax evasion how taxation compares to slavery.
>> Ask anyone who has lost his right to property for back taxes how
>
> It's still a long way from slavery and using inappropriate analogies
> doesn't do your cause any good. A far more accurate phrase for what
> taxation is would be "robbery" (in case that doesn't translate properly
> I mean theft with violence or the threat of violence).

Robbery doesn't tend to include imprisonment.  My recollection is that
you're in the UK.  Here in the US, the government really, really will
throw you in prison for years on the grounds of non-payment of taxes.
And, if you hunker down and refuse to go, they really, really will send
heavily-armed troops in to remove you by force.

A high-profile incident of this last year involved Edward and Elaine Brown
of New Hampshire.

If your business doesn't pay its taxes, you're more likely to see violence
up front, with armed police kicking in your doors, as happened to The
Jewish Mother restaurant in Virginia Beach.  Their bookkeeper was skimming
the taxes off the top and pocketing them, he then turned the restaurant in
to the IRS, saying that they weren't paying taxes.  The IRS responded with
an armed raid during business hours , where they took all their paperwork,
cash registers, and computers in front of terrified customers.

> An example of how damaging an inaccurate analogy is the anarchist
> "property is theft". I'm well aware of what that really mean, and I'm
> pretty sure you are too.  But to most people it means that anarchists
> believe that any private property is wrong

And I've actually had people stand behind that particular philosophy, as
well.  If nothing else, it makes for an interesting mental exercise.  It's
on the other side of the coin of my "if everyone would be decent and
responsible to each other" pipe-dream.  The interesting paradox is that,
if everyone respected property rights and was decent to everyone else, we
wouldn't need the property rights.

>> Please describe how this scenario is different than a government whom I
>> must repeatedly pay off to avoid having my goods stolen and violence
>> visited upon me.
>
> Taxation doesn't involve being compelled to live where your "master"
> tells you to, work at what your "master" tells you to, mate with
> whomever your "master" tells you to, and break up your family whenever
> it is convenient for your "master".

...so long as you pay taxes.  If you do not pay your taxes, at least in
the US, you will be threatened, you will be harassed, you will eventually
go to jail.  Then you WILL live where your master tells you, work at what
your master tells you, and be separated from your family.

-- 
Jonathan Patschke | "There is more to life than increasing its speed."
Elgin, TX         |                                   --Mahatma Gandhi
USA               |