[geeks] education systems around the world

[Mike Meredith]

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:11:12 -0500 (CDT), Jonathan C. Patschke wrote:
> Contingent force is still a threat of force.

Governments always work with the threat of force. 

> Good ideas have a way of selling themselves without having to be
> forced on people.  I assume you have a flush-toilet?  A
> refrigerator?  A bed, perhaps?  Presumably, none of those items was
> forced upon you.

Education isn't quite the same as those items you mention. Yes, a
considerable number of people will be quite keen on education, and make
considerable sacrifices to try and get their children educated. There
are also a number of people who do not see any great value in education
and would be opposed to their children getting an education if it got
in the way of them making their children go out and work.

Even if someone is in favour of education, that doesn't mean they have
the resources to provide education for their children. For instance my
grandmother could have gone to University way back in the 1930s (which
would have been quite something for a working class family in London);
she took her matriculation exam a year early and failed (in English
and not Maths which would have been her "major"). Her parents decided
that they couldn't keep paying for another year after she had failed
and sent her out to work.

Using taxation probably isn't the best option to fund universal
education, but it beats no universal education.

> Furthermore, I'm also implying that the way government schools are
> run in the US is not conducive to a functioning society.  Ask any

I'm not convinced that any form of classroom learning is the best way
of getting an education. It may be worthwhile for elementary education,
but once the 3Rs (and some socialisation) are acquired, independent
learning is probably more effective. 

> and build -amazing- things out of metal.  Those folks don't need to
> be wasting their time in college doing academic stuff they hate!
> They have gifts to use to benefit society!

Actually there's no reason why "colleges" could not provide vocational
training in "crafts". There's a fair amount of learning involved in the
manual trades which would justify a 3 year college course.

> If the child wants to attend, fine.  Otherwise, I'll teach my own.
> 
> By what right does an external organization (which the state and the
> school are) have to state otherwise?

I always have a problem coming up with a justification as to why a
state should interfere, but there are some justifications ...

* What if you refused to teach your children anything ? 

* What if you were teaching your children dangerous rubbish like it's ok
  to blow up infidels to reach paradise ? Or that evolution is rubbish
  and the only scientific theory behind life is "intelligent design" ?

 

> Ask anyone in jail for tax evasion how taxation compares to slavery.
> Ask anyone who has lost his right to property for back taxes how

It's still a long way from slavery and using inappropriate analogies
doesn't do your cause any good. A far more accurate phrase for what
taxation is would be "robbery" (in case that doesn't translate properly
I mean theft with violence or the threat of violence).

An example of how damaging an inaccurate analogy is the anarchist
"property is theft". I'm well aware of what that really mean, and I'm
pretty sure you are too. But to most people it means that anarchists
believe that any private property is wrong (it actually refers to land
ownership by an elite like the Russian aristocracy who stole the land
in the first place).

> > A slave has no rights; he or she is property to be treated as the
> > owner wishes.
> 
> Please describe how this scenario is different than a government whom
> I must repeatedly pay off to avoid having my goods stolen and violence
> visited upon me.

Taxation doesn't involve being compelled to live where your "master"
tells you to, work at what your "master" tells you to, mate with
whomever your "master" tells you to, and break up your family whenever
it is convenient for your "master".

Calling robbery slavery doesn't help your cause.

-- 
Mike Meredith (http://zonky.org/)
 Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
 religeous conviction
  -- Blaise Pascal