[geeks] Socialized medicine [was Re: nVidia 8800GT for Apple Mac Pro]

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:14:00AM +0100, Mike Meredith wrote:
> Undoubtedly that was the case in the past, although some were purely
> economic migrants. For example most of the early Jamestown settlers
> were doing quite well in England, and were in Jamestown to get richer.

Most of the early settlers in the English part of the "new world"
went there to evade religous persecution. There were some exceptions
such as what is now Georgia, which was started as a prison colony.
 
> Now? I'm pretty sure that for the UK immigration is significantly
> larger than emigration. And almost as sure that applies over most of
> Europe.

No, it applies to western Europe, not eastern. Now that you no longer
need a visa to enter the U.K from E.U. countries many people are moving
there. A large portion of them are moslem. From what I read in the press
there are whole towns that have been taken over, and the residents want
to institute sharia (moslem) law. 



> Well most of those who lost "their" homes might disagree, and the
> effects are being felt elsewhere. It isn't by itself an indication of a
> society about to fail.

No, but it's an indicator that things need to change. Housing prices were
forced up by unreasonably small mortgage payments and mortgages given to
people who could not afford them. That was always common in the U.S. since
ARM (adjustable rate mortgages) became common. The idea was to start the
mortgage at a low interest rate to get young families buying and as they
got older, and their incomes increased the rate would go up.

Anyone one this list remember the Carter years? 21% mortgages? If they get
that high again, how many people who have near prime mortgages will go under
when their payments tripple or quadruple?

To give you an idea of things, the Israeli shequelwas between 4.25 and
4.5 to the dollar from October 1998 until August 2007, on Friday it
was 3.33. If the dollar has sunk so low here, how is it doing in the
rest of the world. Eventually prices will catch up and things will go up
25%-33%.


> Besides, I wasn't trying to point out indications that the US is in
> imminent danger of collapse ... it isn't. I was wondering why others
> are claiming Europe is in imminent danger of collapse when I can't see
> any signs of it.

It's not. But things will change and they will not change for the good.
England and parts of Europe are in better shape to weather the storm,
there is a lot of subsidised housing and government medical care.

Both are lacking in the U.S.

Where do those people who are forclosed upon going to live? Where do they
go now? What happens IF the percentage goes from less than 1/2 of a percent
(the current rate) to 5%? 10%, 20%?

> Perhaps I'm too close to see the signs, or perhaps others are letting
> their prejudices (and perhaps misleading media reports) predict
> failure.

I'm sure you are. Most people are blind to the problems around them when
they don't affect them. I'm in the middle of it, so I am much more
sensitive to Islamic terrorism, but it has hit the U.S., the U.K., etc.


> Well you can argue that the unemployed worker in Ohio should be moving
> to where the work is. I dare say many are doing just that. It's just
> that the ones moving from Ohio are less obvious. The ones who stay
> behind may have many reasons for staying put ... some bogus; some
> legitimate. Perhaps they like the fishing :)

Perhaps they can not sell their home. Or perhaps only one of a family
is unemployed and the other can not leave their job. Or the children
are in schools which fit them. There are a million reasons, but most
people can not just pack up and go.

> reluctant to move to what was to them a foreign country (England).
> 
> As to (illegal) immigrants, well by their nature they're more inclined
> to move to where the work is ... otherwise you wouldn't see them! They
> may also be inclined to move back after a few years. For example the UK
> has recently been visited by large numbers of Polish migrant
> workers[0]. Many (when interviewed) make it plain that they are
> intending to work for a few years to improve their standard of living
> in Poland.

But they are not illegal. They are EU citizens exercising their right
to live and work anywhere in the EU. Very different than the U.S.'s 
illegal immegrant problem.

Unfortunately many of them have brought with them crime, relegious strife,
etc. England is nothing like it was 20 years ago, and in some places is
not recognizable as being England at all.

The Poles are the least of your problems. 

 
> [0]: Enough that many adventurous small independent shops now have a
> few shelves dedicated to imported Polish foods. I just wish that the
> packaging was in English; some of the cakes look pretty good :)

You could ask. Most of the proprieters of those shops will be able
to tell you what they sell.

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm at mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM