[geeks] Socialized medicine [was Re: nVidia 8800GT for Apple Mac Pro]

[der Mouse]

> That's what one of the OPs was trying to get across: corporations and
> government agencies started socializing the system to make it "fair
> and comprehensive", but the end result is that costs are higher,

Costs are higher when summed across the whole population, I daresay.
It's how they are spread out that is the crucial difference.

> The problem I have with a socialized system, several actually:

> 	- it requires a lot of taxation,

Certainly.  So does pretty much anything heavily socialized.  But
society pays one way or another; three plausible ways of paying include
taxes, private costs, and untreated problems.  Societies that choose
socialized medicine generally accept higher total monetary costs for
the sake of reducing the untreated-problems costs.  (It might be
possible to eliminate the untreated-problems costs without shifting to
a tax-funded system, but I haven't seen any suggestions for how.)

> 	  and that's already out of control

Perhaps in your country it is, but, if so, that's not a problem with
socialized medicine; it's a problem with your country, or perhaps with
its implementation of socialized medicine.

> 	- it is run by a government which has demonstrated no ability
> 	  or will to do it properly

Another USA-specific issue.  Other governments have working
implementations in place right now.

> 	- several socialized systems around the world are in constant
> 	  danger of bankruptcy as more and more people use it

Several governments around the world are in danger of bankruptcy too;
does this mean governments are a bad idea?

> 	- in the USA anyway, [...]

Another USA-specific issue.

> 	- *EVERY* system so far proposed comes with some really nasty
> 	  strings attached

Another USA-specific issue.

It really seems to me that you have serious problems with the proposed
and attempted partially-socialized-medicine systems in the USA, but I
don't see any particular way what you've said supports the thesis that
socialized medicine is an inherently flawed concept.

> I think most current socialized medical systems are heavily
> subsidized by the free market and could not exist otherwise.

You don't have a free market (or Bear Stearns would have failed);
few-to-no people do.  Your markets, like your individuals, all
subsidize, and are sujbect to, meddling by various levels of
governments.

All societies do this, interfere in how those under their jurisdiction
interact, to some extent.  How and to what extent they do this varies
widely, in finance just as in healthcare (and many other areas, such as
motor vehicles, food sale, and language spoken).

> The only way I can see for socialism to work is for citizens to turn
> over most of their money and a lot of their freedom.

Certainly (well, possibly excepting "most").  And there are those who
find it a worthwhile trade.

Being part of any society involves giving up resources and freedoms in
exchange for societal benefits.  The details differ, and differ widely.
There's nothing wrong with this; I prefer to make the tradeoffs in
favour of a system towards the socialized end of the spectrum when it
comes to medicine - and that's one reason I'm not in the USA.  But I'm
glad non-socialized healthcare systems exist; without examples to look
at, I couldn't be nearly as sure as I am that I don't want to live
under one.

Debating socialized medicine is not really about what's better per se.
It's about different measures of "better".

For example, I place a fairly high value on the "anyone gets treatment"
property the more socialized systems have.  I gather it's something the
USA has, but without most of the rest of the stuff the more socialized
systems have, and it's no surprise it's not working very well - it's an
example of bread and circuses, if you will, of citizens voting
themselves a benefit without thinking about how to pay for it; the
chickens are coming home to roost in the form of, for example, what we
heard an example of upthread - ERs closing because they can't afford to
maintain free-treatment clinics in the absence of sufficient public
resources (tax money is the commonest, but I can imagine other
possibilities).

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