[geeks] Re: [rescue] Paintball

[N. Miller]

Trying to move to geeks...

--On Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:31 AM -0700 Francisco Javier Mesa-Martinez 
<lefa at ucsc.edu> wrote:

> I'd also say you don't really have an idea of what happens in modern
> warfare training. Sure, it may be challenging or whatnot, but military
> training is not just the shoot'em up side of things, which you can emulate
> anywhere you want playing doom.

You make a strong assumption about my background that is false.  I
do know what happens in modern warfare training because I was in
ROTC for several years, have many friends in all branches of the
US armed forces, and am well-versed with firearms and their history
from both being an NRA member and living with an NRA card-carrying
Canadian who is also a military historian.

You trivialize the experience of a team that plays paintball together
every weekend for years by comparing the experience to playing Doom.
Clicking a mouse paintball is not.  Nor is paintball simply a 'shoot-em
up' as you so blithely put it.

I have both lead a 'side' and been a team member in 24-hour scenario
paintball events, and do know in fact, that they have a purposefully
constructed similarity to modern military training games, else there
would be no point in participating in them.

> Because a paintball gun is not the same as a modern machine gun by a long
> shot, and you want soldiers to be "skilled" with the tools they are going
> to use. You have to walk, sleep, and pretty much do everything around your
> gun. You have to clean it, you have to keep it dry, etc. etc. Your gun is
> your life insurance, using a different gun would break part of the point
> of the training. The miles system has the concept of what is shooting at
> what, which makes a HUGE difference, frankly spray painting has nothing to
> do with a real battle environment. Thus its training purpose is nil, if
> you are going to train soldiers using paintball you may aswell go a step
> further and give'em water pistols, you'll get the same "tatical" outcome
> at a chiper price really.

Obviously, you are not familiar with modern paintball markers outside of
the variety that can be bought at the common sporting goods store.  The
type of paintball marker used in urban combat training, simulates a military
firearm in most every way outside of the gunpowder.  To wit:

<http://www.getrealpaintball.com/images/AT16bignorm_1.jpg>

And honestly, if you think that keeping a paintball marker going is any
easier than a Vietnam era M16, then you've never seen the inside of an
Angel or any other electro-pnuematic marker.

> Most decent frontal army units should be populated by skilled markmen, and
> there is one way to get to be proficient with guns, and that is to shot
> the real thing until it becomes second nature. Most of the tactics that
> you'll learn in the army are not about the shoot'em up brawl, but rather
> how to get "there," how to survive once you are "there" at the same time
> that you perform your mission, and in some cases how to get the hell out
> of "there."

I never stated that paintball developed a person's physical stamina for
combat, nor did I ever state that paintball would develop a person's
marksmanship abilities (although I do think that some of the skill
of using a paintball marker is transferrable to that of firearms).  I
stated that paintball markers and equipment were being used in urban
tactical training *and* that in the US many law enforcement agencies
gave people with experience playing paintball preference in hiring
for field positions.  I also stated that some experiences of playing
paintball, which at this point I will specify as 'scenario paintball'
and it's kin, was similar to that of modern warfare, without the
lethal lead.

I actually think that even tournament aka "speedball" paintball, in
some cases, has elements of modern urban warfare to it, and therefore
can be adapted for training.

And for reference, some formal and informal examples of paintball
being used in *military* training:

<http://www.f4og.com/militarypaintball.html>
<http://tinyurl.com/fde5>   (Tiny URL version)
<http://www.isayeret.com/gear/paintball/paintball.htm>
<http://dailytitan.fullerton.edu/issues/spring_02/03_26/news/onthehunt.html>
<http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20021224/southsound/34063_ARC.shtml>

>  Yes, lasers
>> can be used at longer distances (some would argue unreasonable distances
>> compared with the accuracy of most soldiers' weapons).  Laser systems
>> really don't work that well for night training, either.
>
> Again, you have never used the system and most likely never will, so I do
> not understand how you can make such claims really. It was our standard
> simulation system during most NATO combined exercises I participated in,
> and it did a reasonable job.

Just because I have never used the system does not rule me incompetent to
comment on it's appropriateness to a give training situation.  Information
on MILES is widely available to the public.  I do not believe that it
demonstrates, from a physical standpoint, to a person 'killed' in the
way that getting hit by a projectile does.  And given that much urban
warfare training does *not* use MILES, but rather, blanks, I think that
paintballs are far more effective in those cases.

> Paintball is a game, deal with it. I have talked to some avid paintballers
> and they seem to think is anything close to what a normal infrantry
> scenario would look like, and they get very upset when they hear what i
> have to say. The whole training has to revolve around the tools your are
> going to depend on, sadly no wars are fought using paintball guns thus
> using these methods is a waste of time and can endanger lives because they
> can mess your subconcious training.

I've already addressed this point.  A good soldier should be able to take
any weapon, when necessary, and make it his or her own to use effectively.
Any soldier who cannot has not been trained properly.

[snip]

As for the rest of your comments, while I appreciate your opinion, I cannot
agree.  I know a lot more about fire control, fields of fire, enfilading,
conservation of resources, stealth, diversion, and a multitude of other
strategic and tactical concepts as a direct result of playing paintball--
and no military trainers were directing me.  I also believe I am a better
marksman with firearms as a result of putting ~20K rounds through my
paintball marker over the last two years.

Of course, I also think that Americans should not be paying taxes on
their wages (i.e. the profit of their labor) nor has our Congress the
right to restrict our use of firearms, so mine is certainly a minority
opinion.  Pacifism only works if the oppressors are civilized.

Paintball may be "just a game" to some.  But to others, it is having
a shaping impact on the youth in the US, as it's the second fastest
growing extreme sport in the US, and has been in the top 10 fastest
growing sports for over 5 years.

=Nadine=

(Bead-blasted Grey GZ Intimidator w/Egg, Freak Barrel System, & Max
Flow HPA system.  I also have an M98 w/Flatline & AutoSpirit Barrels
using CO2 for scenario.  I want a Flatline A5 so bad I can taste it,
but no job, so no new toys.  If you want an electro-pnuematic that is
almost as rock solid as the M98, the Timmy is it. Angels suck.  I can
get away with saying that as I own one, *and* I am a certified
airsmith. :-)  Are any of you going to the IAO up in the Pittsburg
area?)