[geeks] CCW for Ohio!

[Francisco Javier Mesa-Martinez]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Mike Hebel wrote:

> Fair enough.  I'll accept that for the moment there could _possibly_ be
> a working model.

I do understand that in order for those systems to work, a certain degree
of expectations from the society are expected.

> My point is that the common sense necessary to be a gun owner can not
> be legislated.
> It has to be taught from the ground up.  Only parents can do that
> properly.  But then we get into the discussion of how to get parents
> to...well...parent.  A government or even a civil plan of any sort will
> never solve that problem.

Well educated parents should be able to do such tasks, a parent does not
automatically become a good parent as a de facto characteristic. If it can
not be regulated, at least "helped".

> Not necessarily.  The perfect could possibly come from the imperfect.
> I have to believe this otherwise why have faith in an imperfect
> universe?

Who said the universe is imperfect? :) The laws that regulate it are
pretty perfect, anything builds on top of those perfect laws follow their
perfection. IMHO.

> One acronym - DMCA.  A flawed system where no system would be better.

Touche on that one, however it was an imperfect system showeled down our
throats, with only one side involved in its creation and implementation.

> > The way I see it, once you own a gun and have demostrated the ability
> > to
> > own and operate it, the government should not be able to take it away,
> > as
> > your ownership is explicitly protected in the constitution.
>
> Fair enough.  What happens when/if the constitution is changed?  Do you
> expect people to idly hand over their weapons that they've "earned"?

If you government starts changing the constitution and nobody does
anything about it, I believe the last of the concerns of an American
citizen should be whether or not they are gonna take their weapons. As far
as I am concerned a governmnet who changes the constitution is no longer a
government, ie. the citizen is not bounded to its government, but to the
government that was recognized under the constitution agreed upon the
citizens (I do not know if that is worded correctly). Of course recent
developments with PATRIOT I/II made me very suspicious about the sneakness
of the government. But since I am not an American citizen, there is not
much I can do. I am however a tad scared about the lack of action of the
American electorate/public. IMHO, if a government modifies any element of
the constitution w/o obtaining some sort of massive popular intervetion
(referendum) then such government becomes void, an as such it is the duty
of the citizens to let the government know that they have been voided. And
as far as I know the military in this country pledges its allegiance to
the constitution.

> This isn't mean as a jab against you - it's just a question.  I
> personally wouldn't.

And you are more than entitled to such stand.

> > Of course my position comes from personal gun experience, and the fact
> > that I would not want my kids, if I ever have them, to live or have to
> > experience guns.
>
> So you would deny them experience that could potentially save their
> lives in certain situations?

Having a child is in itself an egotistic action, and raising it is a
continuation of such choice. I understand your concern, and it is a very
deeply personal choice... after experiencing first hand combat, well my
positions on many things changed drastically and one of them was that at
some point, under certain conditions a human being may lose its fear of death.
Sounds silly, and I do not expect any one else to not put up a fight or
to even understand... if my kid as an adult decides otherwise he/she will be
free to do whatever he/she wants.

> > I try to keep this as civil as possible, and that is my position. I am
> > sure most of you disagree with it, but I just wanna make damn sure that
> > this is not taken as an insult.
>
> Fair enough.  I see no insult in your last statement.  I withdraw the
> Troll comment and mark you highly opinionated like the rest of us.
> *grin*

We are all strongly opinionated, I just happen to have a different opinion
on this issue. I did not however wanted this to degenerate into some sort
of personal playground bickering contest.