[geeks] POWER5!!!!

[dave at cca.org]

dittman at dittman.net writes:

>> Gosh. He has some of the same weapons the US does and uses them
>> in war. That must be a first.  It's not like the US has ever used
>> weapons of mass destruction against civilians.

>Hiroshima and Nagasaki did have military targets.

Hiroshima was a city filled with civilians. If you're going
to argue that a tiny military-related presence there makes it
a ligit target, then I'm *sure* equivalent things could be
found to make that argument for the WTC and 9/11.

However, the wierd bit about Hiroshima is that the bombing
was originally announced as being against a purely military
target. They had definately decided, after much debate, to
hit a military, not a civilian target. I haven't seen a good
explanation yet as to how that mistake was made.

But... back to Iraq. Are you saying that if Saddam only used
nukes against cities with a military presence (that would
include every city in the middle east, I believe) then it
would be ok for him to have them?

>I think Saddam is pretty likely to use them.  If he nuked
>Israel, Israel would nuke them, and things would start to
>escalate pretty quickly.  I think we'd find out then which
>countries in the Middle East actually had nukes.

Why would he try to nuke Israel if it would mean instant
destruction? MAD worked for us.

>> We didn't invade Pakistan when they tested their first nuke.

>No, we didn't, but Pakistan was driven to develop nukes to
>counter India.  We did discuss the issue diplomatically.

You could say the same for Iraq countering Israel. (Or the
US for that matter.) *Everyone* wants nukes. I do not believe
that Saddam wanting nukes has anything to do with the war plans.

>The embargo and no-fly zone were responses to Saddam's refusal
>to honor terms of surrender that he agreed to after the Gulf
>War.

Right. That was the stupid origins of this horrible situation.
Ongoing occupation of other countries is a bad situation. We should
have accomplished whatever we thought needed to be accomplished,
and then *left*. Also, our abuse of the weapons inspection teams
(spying on non-WMD issues, to get targets for later attacks) should
have resulted in that program being terminated immediately.

>> WHILE HE WAS OUR GUY. Why didn't it bother us then? And why is
>> the General who was in charge of the gassing of the Kurds being
>> pushed by us to replace Saddam!?!?

>I think it did bother us then.  The news was reported over
>here in the US when it was discovered, and there was a bit
>of an outcry.

It didn't bother our *government*. Our advice to him at the
time was to do things like that more quietly.

And we're pushing the general who was in charge of those attacks
as a replacement for Saddam.

My point is not that the claims against Saddam are *entirely*
without merit (obviously I think they're mostly without merit,
but there are some ligit points). My point is that all the
hype has *NOTHING* to do with why the US is about to attack.

We want his oil. That's all. This is a mugging. Mugging a
mobster is still a mugging.

And everyone in the middle east sees this. Which means that
it's going to fuel Al-Queda for years. Attacking Iraq will
lead to a massive increase in terrorism.

>Unfortunately, that's why we are so buddy-buddy with Saudi
>Arabia even though a lot of the financing and manpower for
>the terrorists come from there.  I think it's time to stop
>being so diplomatic with Saudi Arabia just for their oil.

They're trying to sever ties with Saudi Arabia, unfortunately
I think the idea is to install a puppet government in Iraq
so we have a controllable alternative to the Saudis.

Which is exactly how the Shah was originaly placed into power
in Iran, thus leading to the Islamic Revolution. Maybe some
day we'll stop meddling in the middle east. 

Oddly enough, Bush is handling the Iranian situation really 
well. Which is to say - leave them alone. They're *incredibly*
close to throwing the clerics out of power and evolving into
a real democracy, but any US meddling would be disasterous.
Bush has steered clear, which is great.

------ David Fischer ------- dave at cca.org ------- http://www.cca.org ------
----------- When Heaven is full, the dead shall walk the earth. -----------