[geeks] Religion vs. Politics was: Glad I don't live in Texas!

[Mike Hebel]

> I consider it less a religion and more a philosophy (I
> know Buddhist Christians, fer example), but that's splitting hairs.  Feel
> free.

Oddly I seem to see a lot of Christian/$FOO here in the midwest.  It's 
almost like people around here don't want to admit to being $FOO but 
have to say they're Christian.  (No flameage meant to anyone on the list.)

> Ahh, but what is interesting is when the act is a good thing to do
> regardless.  For example, if I help someone in need, and I am not
> Christian, then is it no longer the good Christian thing to do?

No more than any other action.  I only wish more people realized this 
like you Pete.  I personally do good because good comes back to me.

> (I've actually been in this situation, where I was thanked for being a
> "good Christian man", possibly because I'm white and North American.  When
> I pointed out to said person that I was not Christian, they then ignored
> me, even though they had been praising me 30 seconds before.  Odd, huh?
> :-)

Try being Pagan and telling those people that.  They usually don't talk 
to me ever again after that.  But then, if they're that close-minded I 
usually am better off not talking to them.

>>back to my example.  My religious beliefs are such that I believe they
>>are the only correct beliefs.  I can't force Pete to believe them, I
>>can't even force Pete to listen to my beliefs.  Yet, I do wish that
>>Pete believed as me.  My options are rather limited.  I can, in my
> 
> 
> Oh, I don't know... We'd then have nothign to argue about, unless you
> liked SGI. :-)

Or the Evil Empire. ;-)

>>associations with Pete let him see that I am an honest upright kind of
>>guy, which can help relieve the sour taste left by pushy people who
> 
>   [...]

Hmmm...that taste is very strong from my point of view.  Let's just say 
from my experiences you don't want to be a non-Christian in America lately.

> As such, I have nothing against anything.  However, in my limited
> experience, I have had more born-agains INSIST on telling me why I was
> going to hell, even though I expressed my disinterest in knowing.
> Granted, many religions suffer the same problem.  (Interestingly enough, I
> seem to have a number of friends who are Witnesses, yet they've never
> tried to convert me.)

Let's see:
"Don't you love God?"
"Do you want to condemn you child to hell?"
"Don't you want to see Heaven?"
"How can you _not_ believe in God?!"

And many more.  For most people I can explain that I don't share their 
beliefs and they'll leave me alone on the subject.  Then there's the 
group of people who came to my house when I was not home saying "So? 
You don't believe?" to my mother because _my_ car has a Darwin fish on 
the back of it.  I think those people need to follow their own "Golden 
Rule" so to speak.

> I think if someone being happy and content in their faith is the best ad
> possible.  When somebody tries to force it on another, I immediately see
> that as being suspicious.  Missionaries are great at that - often, insted
> of living by example, they've forced their belief systems on "primative"
> people.  

Hmph.  There are still a fair amount of those in suburbia let alone 
"primitive" places.

>>The sects that "force" belief with violence (and I use the term sects
>>because I don't believe there is a "religion" which, as a whole,
>>embraces violence.  The two that come to mind quickly are Islam and
>>Christianity, which both have multiple militant branches.  And which
> 
>   [...]
> 
> Very true.  The funny thing is that the base messages are very similar.

There are IMHO military branches of any religion.  There are even 
militant Pagans - a group of people I wish to ship off to some remote 
area somewhere.  In my opinion militarism with regards to your faith 
means that your faith isn't as strong as it could be personally.  That 
means the problem is yourself, not the person you're fighting.

> Very often, it does not boil down to religion at all.  The crusades were
> purely for profit, but was pushed on the soldiers as a "religious" war.

More pennies for the collection box/plate/coffer etc.  (Again, no 
flamage meant.)  I often wonder what that money goes to as the organized 
  religions often seem to have a lot of nice stuff spent on display 
rather than operations.

> "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say
> it." 

I second this.  I may not like what you say but if they take away _your_ 
right to say it - then mine is next.

Mike Hebel

Festering my personal Paranoia for a new millenium. ;-)