[geeks] Religion vs. Politics was: Glad I don't live in Texas!

[Tim H.]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:52:42 -0500
Bill Bradford <mrbill at mrbill.net> wrote:

with apologies to Pete, who is the only one I've seen lately to publicly declare a religious viewpoint and seems to be solid enough in his personal beliefs that my using him as an example won't threaten him.

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 10:24:37AM -0400, Tim H. wrote:
> > I don't think so, Religion, if properly applied, gives you a reason for 
> > life and what happens in it, Politics, on the other hand, is just people 
> > arguing about who should tell other people what to do.  
> 
> And most religions that I see are about telling people what to do and how to
> live their lives..

Correct, religions tell people who follow they m how to live their lives.  And many _religious_people_ tell "outsiders how to live their lives, but that is patently ridiculous.  for example, I am a born again Christian, Pete is a Buddhist, I can tell Pete you should do x because it is the good Christian thing to do.  Pete can then have a good laugh, because being a good Christian is really not on his todo list. And he can feel free to not associate with me again. 
> 
> > Religion is internal, politics is completely external.  My Political beliefs 
> > may be very strong and sincere, but they aren't truly political until I 
> > broadcast them.  
> 
> And most religions are all about getting *more* people to beleive what that
> religion tells them to do.  See history.

back to my example.  My religious beliefs are such that I believe they are the only correct beliefs.  I can't force Pete to believe them, I can't even force Pete to listen to my beliefs.  Yet, I do wish that Pete believed as me.  My options are rather limited.  I can, in my associations with Pete let him see that I am an honest upright kind of guy, which can help relieve the sour taste left by pushy people who claim to be Christians (and who very well may be)  Of course, this won't affect Pete's personal beliefs, but it might help reduce any negativity he has toward the thought of Christianity (remember this is an example, I have no knowledge of Pete's opinion of Christianity, I've never even met him in person)  If Pete were to inquire, I could explain to him what I believe, and why I believe it.  But in the end, any effort to MAKE Pete believe as I do would have the exact opposite effect.

The sects that "force" belief with violence (and I use the term sects because I don't believe there is a "religion" which, as a whole, embraces violence.  The two that come to mind quickly are Islam and Christianity, which both have multiple militant branches.  And which both have large numbers of members who are either against religious violence, or who are total pacifists, against any kind of violence) are not changing personal beliefs.  They are enforcing particular public actions.  
> 
> > Politics requires discussion, Religion does not.  Some Religions do require 
> > attempts to convince others, but except for the relatively few militant 
> > sects, they do not require others to enter into the discussion if they don't 
> > desire to.  
> 
> Only in recent history has a lot of this been voluntary. 8-)

Personal beliefs have always been/always will be voluntary.  Religious politics (The Irish conflict is often labeled as a Catholic/Protestant fight) are very seldom (never?) actually about religious beliefs, they are about groups of people striving for power/money/political ideology.  

Another instance (less touchy because it is largely past, even though the bad effects linger) is the "Christianization" of large chunks of Africa.  As Western European colonialism went through Africa, it brought along missionaries to "convert the heathen".  Some of these people were truly there to share Christianity.  Many of them were there to spread "civilised behavior" in the form of clothing, housing, time management, all kinds of cultural junk.  Once again, because the people with the guns said you were a "Christian" you wore foreign clothes, you moved your family religious practices out of sight, and you went along with the official religion, but you didn't change any fundamental beliefs.  In Africa there are thriving Christian churches, but the majority of them started when foreign missionaries didn't attempt to change all the cultural things, but instead went to Africa, and explained to people who wanted to listen what they believed.

I may (do) disagree with Pete about Politics and Religion, if he were my neighbor we would argue about the politics when the mood struck us, and I'd gladly loan him my lawn mower.  A religious discussion would have to start with a question in one direction or the other.  As for the other neighbors, they would probably know how I believed, and how Pete believed, but neither one of us would be sticking tracts under their door.

and Pete, I hope nothing in this was offensive.
> 

Tim