[geeks] Re: [rescue] cheap gps for time reference

[Tim H.]

>>>>>WARNING, WINDBAG ALERT<<<<<<<

On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:14:39 -0400
Kurt Huhn <kurt at k-huhn.com> wrote:

> Anyway, US citizens are typically the type that enjoy instant
> gratification. Security checkpoints at school entrances *seem* to work
> in the short term. However, that kid, if he wants to, will still take
> down his target - just probably not on school grounds.  *That* is what
> escapes most people.

Part of the problem is also related to the concept of a self governing
society. (no flames, I said concept)  Any sort of public moral teaching
has to make it through challenges from all groups with different views
of morality.  Because of this schools do not teach right and wrong, and
many parents (no flames again, I just said many) do not instill their
values into thier kids, or in some cases, it is already a generation
old, the parents have no defined morality, so can't instill it in their
kids.

I know that this list has people of many belief systems, but from what I
have seen discussed, most of the people with kids have expresed a desire
to teach those kids a moral framework, I am afraid that isn't as
prevalent in society as it is here. (and once again, no flames, I didn't
define moral)

Because our schools are not capable of teaching morals, and because a
lot of parents don't, kids grow up without a reference to separate good
from bad.  So we get stuff like columbine, where some kids built their
own good/bad reference, and obviously got it wrong.

To solve the problem, one of two things would have to happen:
a)  Society could agree on a definite morality

b)  Parents could all take their child-rearing responsibilities
seriously

the first choice is impossible, because a framework for morality has to
answer some hard questions, a couple quick ones would be abortion or
human cloning.  We have demonstrated as a society that we can't have a
consensus on these issues, and attempts to legislate have caused more
problems than they solved.  These types of questions have to be decided
individually by people with a framework to think in.  Actually abortion
is an easy one to define the question.  It is a value comparison between
Adult self determination and Fetal potential.  (please no flames, I
defined a question, I didn't answer it)

The other choice does not help societies fear, because everybody knows
"those kids" whose parents let them raise themselves.  Besides, it would
require 100% voluntary commitment by all parents.  Yeah right.

So our society is left with laws, but no morality to justify them,
Society cannot solve the problem, because the problem is a family or
personal level problem.  The only possible thing society can do is put
metal detectors in the schools and courthouses, and attempt to crush the
symptoms.

For a comparison, lets look at the "good old days".  Morality in America
was passed from parent to child during significant amounts of time spent
together.  When the majority of our population was rural and ag. based,
there was a lot of time spent together, everybody worked the farm.  As
populations shifted more and more parents (originally fathers) started
working jobs away from homethis left less time for "indoctrination by
example"  This trend has continued, WWI and WWII saw big jumps in women
working, and that trend has just increased, so now a large chunk of kids
have two working parents, or just one parent at all.

At the same time viewpoints other than what is referred to as
judeo-christian started to accumulate enough people that they actually
made noise in society, and the overt religion started to disappear in
the schools.  Not very many schools left in the country with the 10
commandments on the wall. (This isn't a judgment, its just what
happened)  So kids don't get told what is right and wrong in school, and
kids don't spend hours each day absorbing the beliefs of their parents,
and unfortunately many kids don't get any basis at all for morality.

The result is just the natural conclusion of the belief that everyone
has a right to believe what they want, which at it's core is only
applicable to adults.  Adults have a responsibility to tell their
children what is right and what is wrong, and what to do, and what not
to do.  Parents also have a responsibility to make children do these
things.  Children have a responsibilty first of all to grow up, and once
they have accomplished that, if the parents did their job, the kids will
have a framework of right and wrong, and they will likely have the
religious belief system in which they were raised.  They could very well
decide the religion was not what they want, but they will seldom choose
to abandon the right/wrong framework.

Of course there are a lot of people who want to legislate pieces of the
parent child relationship.  I am convinced that parents have a right to
raise their kids as they see fit, with relatively little interferance,
but of course no one wants child abuse, so once again society is stuck
attempting to legislate an issue on which it can have no consensus. 
There is obvious child abuse, but then their is the big fuzzy area. 
Spanking? Hand or Belt or Flyswatter? Half an hour in a closet?  10
minutes nose to a corner?  Yelling at them?  Insincere threats of bodily
harm?  

Now that I am a parent I have formed my own rules for discipline, but I
would resent any government telling me what I could and couldn't do to
discipline my kids. (by the way, I use two minutes in a chair, with no
talking except about what the punishment is for.  A spanking (and with
my daughter it is a whole lot gentler that the pummelling she gets when
we are playing) is reserved for cases of potential injury, like playing
with electrical sockets or attempting to run across a parking lot by
herself.)  I think I have spanked her 3 or 4 times in her life, and in
all cases it was a gentle swat on a padded butt, and resulted in very
dramatic tears and much hugging.  

I am always amazed that this little girl who get spanked, tickled, sat
on, flown like an airplane, rolled across the floor, and who head butts
her poor dad til he can't see straight, all while playing, will burst
into heart wrenching tears at an almost non-existant disciplinary spank.
 Just that reaction is enough to convince me that with this kid, saving
the spank as the ultimate last resort was the right choice.  Of course
the normal two minute time out discipline is pretty rough on dad,
because she will sit there for her two minutes, all sad and pouty, and
when I tell her her two minutes are up she usually says "thank you". 
The first time she did that to me I had to go in another room because I
felt so bad.